Now who is more comfortable? Radiant ceilings accelerate fast, when needed, to meet a big change in heating load. If we make no adjustments I think we will make it to end of February. You must be a magazine subscriber to access this feature. Wrong. Maybe we are getting away from the initial topic, but just to be clear the focus of my comments are: - radiant heating versus forced air heat to produce a given comfort level for human occupants The hardware of this device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in small houses. So if youre sleeping in a second-floor bedroom, you no longer need to cover the cost necessary to keep the unoccupied first-floor at 70 degrees. There are 2 companies in my area that specialize in repairing that stuff. Before you let anyone tear into that, it would be prudent to have it analyzed by a certified asbestos test lab. In an attempt to repair it I found 3 cut wires. They do do work in Ohio. In these experimental efforts, the principles of radiant heating were often aligned with solar power. In addition, the system does not require much maintenance or cleaning once installed and one of the safest types of heating. Prior to replacement, we were burning oil like mad! It works fabulously. See Heating Solutions for a Colonial Revival Addition. Since the overall thermal comfort sensation tend to decrease with an increase in the magnitude of Heating, Cooling & Air; Heating & Cooling Appliances; Space Heaters; Share | . While Warmboard offers better-than-average . Here are two super-useful articles (10 to 20 minute read each): But we may have just had dumb luck! A person with forced air will turn the stat up a little more to achieve the same level of comfort, using more energy. Discuss Ceiling heating1970's? Sie knnen nicht notwendige Cookies ber Einstellungen verwalten ablehnen. The research project, completed in May 1994, was sponsored by the U.S. Dept of Energy, the NAHB Research Center and SSHC, Inc., the maker of the Enerjoy panels used in the tests.". I had the floor boards up today and noticed that the ceiling rose for the room below, was wired with 3 singles. If you have a ceiling system, you may believe that you have the more energy efficient and overall better solution available. sug suggest to just get a thermometor . In addition, because aluminum transfers heat so effectively, the home boiler can heat the water for the system to a lower temperature than other systems would require. I have the product in both of my homes. Panels, each inset with hot-water tubing, lie under the floor material of your choice, delivering heat to the space above quietly, invisibly, and in a constant, enveloping way. Free shipping for many products! The article was written by the Research Chairman of the ASHRAE Radiant Heating and Cooling Technical Committee. Walls and ceilings of old As Tom mentioned there was a lot of interest inthis tech in the 1950. look at some of the big names that were involved. Just after we bought the house, a friend wired in a light/fan fixture, so I started there and removed the fixture and base. Radiant ceiling heat, 1969 home, Trying to find ceiling joist with a stud finder.. it seems to be picking up radiant heat as well.. It is also greener, as less energy is wasted in this process. The remainder of sheets were 5/8 firecode. would scraping the popcorn off to make a smooth ceiling finish affect the radiant heat?. Michael -- thanks for citing the research from Canada. I would have thought that there would only be one source for each room. 800 sq ft at 65 degrees only on in two rooms all winter and it runs close to 300 a month November -late March. To get the most out of radiant ceiling heat, it's recommended that the system be installed on flat ceilings that are between 8 and 12 feet high. Radiant ceiling heating works without vents or blowing elements, which make it practically noise-free. In an effort to improve upon radiators and space heaters, radiant ceiling heat was designed to provide consistent, even warmth. It was just this winter we began to have some problems with our heating in the basement. First you need to determine what KIND of thermostat you have. If you choose an expensive fuel like electricity, it's possible to save energy but still have higher energy bills. Our house was built in 1977. In winter, this situation is reversed with your warm indoor air moving through the plasterboard and outside of the home. Manufactured gypsum board heating panels use an electrical heating element in 16-mm (f-in.) Clearly you are confusing radiant heat (electric heat under tile floors) with electric resistance heating by lumping them all in the same category. They now claim no responsibility so trying to replace it ourselves with something different. Thanks to haulbrookdf for your comment as well. We ended up placing simple electric floor heaters in those rooms. Looks quite dated, going by the rest of the install would say no earlier than 1970's. Currently trying to suss out where its wired from. It was determined to be from ceiling heat. We just bought a condo that was built in 1984. it has ceiling radiant heat and a popcorn finish. Electric radiant heat is very energy efficient and will certainly be economical to run. Only when the boiler and distribution plumbing are in uninsulated unconditioned space does that loss add up to much. Is any of this comfortable? energy consumption (Zmeureanu et al., 1988; Howell and Suryanarayana, 1990; Imanari et al., 1999; Petras and Kalus, 2000; Miriel et al., 2002; Feng et al., 2006) and (3) favorable tie-in Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. When's the Right Time to Install Radiant Heating. Our home is just under 1100 sq feet with 3 zones. Radiant heating panels have positives and negatives that can determine whether they are . One wire is connected to the thermostat. Btw Martin, fuels costs are way to high here to consider anything else than fire or electricity, In the older form, electric heating elements are sandwiched between a layer of drywall and a layer of plaster. #9. It's NOT a heatlamp! In a well insulated home with the proper number of panels per the home heat loss . Radiant heat is energy-efficient and can help you save up to 15% on heating bills as the system itself is so efficient. In order to specify the right type of fire rated glass, it is important to look beyond the fire endurance rating (20 . I read about it, and anticipated that we d be comfortable with lower temp, Also he said if wrong thermostat was used the contacts would "weld themselves together"! But had i know better, i'd still would've consider heat pumps as main heat source because of the cost difference vs resistance. Our hydro bills have been through the roof compared to other houses in my area. i have access to the attic space and i havent seen any evidence of wires. UPDATE 1/21/2017 -- they are now saying (they = insurance and restoration professionals working with them) that is was the bathroom light fixture, not the ceiling heat, and it makes sense. Sure enough, the wire was cut from above and you couldn't see the break from below. Of course this statement is nonsense, but then, your prejudice against radiant heating, of any kind, should be obvious to the most casual reader of this otherwise accurate and useful site. Radiant ceiling heat has been available in some form for over 50 years. why the hurry to leave ? Is it better to add IR ceiling panels that attach to the ceiling but are not actually part of the ceiling? Bigman | Jan 06, 2006 02:57am | #20. . Here's an excerpt from a paper I have (which references many other studies). I'm sure he can direct you to installers. Radiant ceiling heat comes in two main forms. Combine that with a nice radiant point source like a wood stove for cosy winter evenings and you have the best of both worlds. 1970's retro fit rear car window heater built in, thick visible tracks) are fragile and easily damaged. You can get hot water panels. The simplest was the fireback, a decorated slab of cast iron placed at the rear of the firebox to retain and radiate heat. I figured it out and installed a new thermostat today, wish I could have figured it out at the beginning of the heating system. It appears the wires are embedded in the drywall. They may be good for retrofit. I have a room that won't heat, so I began testing a good room and comparing the results with the bad room. convective heating system. Nuns convent: Outdoor kitchen counters for an indoor kitchen? Certainly, the basic technology offers efficiency advantages, but individual system components make a big difference too. Example: Take two houses in the winter both heated to 68 degrees. I was able find a label on the top side of the panel in my attic. Fire-resistive glazing is designed to block radiant heat transfer from one building compartment to another and protect people leaving a building through an exit corridor.Click here to view a video summarizing the risks of radiant heat. Our home was built in 1957 and has radiant heat in the ceiling. Hskidmore07 try calling a home inspector a local realtor can give you a referral.. Great to see posts about homes built in the late 60's - 70's that used radiant ceiling heat. http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/enerjoy_case_study.pdf. I want to feel safe. Therefore, the bedrooms upstairs benefit from the heat on the first floor. temperatures. You act as if people are concocting magic when they discuss radiant heat but standing in the sun on a cold day should provide ample evidence that radiant heat is fundamentally different from heating the air, and the fact is this method of heat transfer to the human body is fairly efficient. In this case, one solution to increase the overall comfort and reduce energy consumption at the same time is to provide a source of supplemental heat to those areas being occupied at one moment and exclude or lower the overall supply of central heat. Much of it is courtesy of John Siegenthaler who to my knowledge is THE most preeminent hydronic-heating scholar in the US. When we replaced the furnace, we added digital thermostats with no issues in all 3 zones. I sent them both a website inquiry. Below are some of the benefits you can enjoy: Has it been a while since you last looked into your options? It consists of a metal grid that hangs from the rafters and heats up when electricity flows through it (similar to how you might use radiant floor heat). https://radiantcooling.com/how-radiant-ceiling-works/. Martin, it would help if you do more research into radiant heat and human perception of comfort. William, Put simply, Warmboard requires the least amount of energy of any radiant system to maintain a comfortable temperature in the home. It is not that simple minded. Your $500 would be impossible for me at 16 cents a KWH and I have just under 2000 sqft. This said, our house has approx 5k sq ft of electrical in slab floor heating However, there was no voltage on the other grid lead. The electric radiant mats have VERY low distribution losses (a few percent, mostly in the line to low volage conversion electronics). Our home built in 1960 has the coils of wire radiant ceiling heat. Does that sound realistic? Hydronic systems also have pretty low distribution losses, and almost all of those losses accrue inside of conditioned space and are not fully "lost" during periods of real heat load, even if they're not heating the exact zone calling for heat. - and enjoy the extra punch of a focal heat source in the living room. I have had people swear by this system, winter will tell. Ceiling heat from 1964 in Maryland. At no point have I ever confused electric radiant ceiling panels with electric resistance baseboards -- I know the difference. 21c will probably be the ideal setting here. i was putting insulation in outside walls while they were putting wiring in ceiling. In one of our more recent design/build radiant systems we radiated the slab in the basement and the ceiling for the main floor at the same design water temperature - 110F ,which of course modulates with outdoor air temperatures having an average design water temperature made for heat pump or condensing boiler. The very first radiant heating systems emerged in the Roman Empire. 1. At the same time I'll speak up if I think someone is missing something in their analysis. HeatingGreen.com offers comparable panels if you're looking to compare. The heat would be 240V (dbl pole).If a dbl pole thermo was installed, it would `correctly` break BOTH 120V legs of the power. So lets assume that without current light drafts in the house due to a few current problems Though its not always impossible to achieve zoned heating with traditional systems, newer technologies accommodate zoning from the get-go. Mein Benutzererlebnis mit Cookies anpassen, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, Recessed lights in a ceiling with radiant electric heat. In part, radiant excels in efficiency because, unlike forced-air systems with imperfect ductwork,the former isnt vulnerable to heat loss. The best way for one to reduce their energy consumption is to use electric radiant ceiling heat. We pay 0.075$ kw/h. Can anyone suggest a thermostat that works with the in ceiling closed loop radiant heat? Myth No.2: Radiant Ceiling Heat is Not Efficient. Or go with something totally different like a mini split? Thats one of the reasons that more and more homeowners are switching to radiant. Hello, I need to put some hooks in the joist. It is a film type heat and my installers said it was easy to do. Wow, so glad to finally find this informative info. It should cost less than $100. Actually, electric radiant heat has all of the advantages of radiant heat and none of the drawbacks of convection electric heat as stated above. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Radiant ceiling panels cost about $50-60 per square foot. I put them behind the mirror in our master bath but we don't use them much because the walls are warm (good insulation) and the bath fan gets rid of the steam from the shower. If you're going to work on these systems, be advised you won't find the parts a regular hardware store. Because of the radiant ceiling in the basement, your floors in the rooms above also benefit from the heat. Most parts of the country are paying about $1 a therm for natural gas. Ive been through coal, hot water and force air heating systems. Then the heat suddenly turns off, and it stays off until the room gets cold enough to snap the system back into action. Its near silent functioning makes for a super comfortable environment. Anyway, it cannot hurt you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you dole out advice. What do you think? That is why radiant heat is far more comfortable to us because the radiant heat warms the objects in the room, making us perceive the room as warm. I live in central Ohio and live in a home that was built in 1974 and has radiant ceiling heat. Radiant heat and convection heating are different approaches to space heating and they do not deliver the equivalent results. Morgan, I would get another opinion from a licensed electrician. Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification. Comparing both radiant-type and convective-type in-space heaters showed that using the radiant-type saved more than its counterpart, i.e. Forced air heating and cooling is integrated and common in homes with existing ductwork. Sort: Prev Next: You are not authorized to post a reply. Holes can be cut forlights fixtures and it will still work. If you look at a simple termperature response curve of a various radiant elements, you'll note that different efficiencies (measured in terms of radiated and convected J/KWh) can be obtained in via different designs. Around the same time, on the other side of the globe, the Korean ondol system heated homes by means of cooking fires that transmitted heat from the kitchen to a series of strategically positioned stones. Patrick, Most people don't want to live in a house with cold rooms that require occupants to turn on electric heating panels to get warm whenever they move to a different room. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for pair of vintage NOS 1970 Aubrey 7312 surface mount ceiling heater at the best online prices at eBay! Copper tubing however, is able to handle temperatures and fluctuations without damage . A really good grade of paint. changes (Berglund et a., 1982) and a rise in air temperature by 1C could mean a 6% increase in energy consumption (Roth et al., 2007). I need to replace my thermostats, as they don't really seem to shut off the heat. Does a CU swap require a full initial verification on all circuits before it can be energised? The ceiling had to be replaced and it originally had a cement board on it. Not every radiant heating system maximizes homeowner savings. Here's a brief study of assessing clains of lower thermostat settings in hones with radiant floor heat done by CMHC http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/01-106-e.html, They found slightly higher settings in the radiant heat homes and concluded: The entire unit is mounted in silicone rubber to eliminate hum and expansion noise. Very well built for it's time, no money spared when built, but older nevertheless. This efficiency means that your furnace doesnt need to work as hard, and you save an additional 10 to 20 percent on energy costsabove and beyond what youre already saving by choosing radiant heat over a traditional system. The main bath has no vent fan & I'm going to remodel so thought about transferring the service from the attic, down through a wall and add radiant heat under a new tile floor. The previous owner also added gas forced air heat. FREE delivery Mon, Mar 6 . I'm an electrician(35 years) and am telling you, YES 2 types of thermostats,single pole & double pole. THere is a different zone for every room. With radiant ceilings and floors comfort is achieved at a lower room temp, which can reduce the amount of fuel used by a few percent. We use the bathroom zone in the winter but otherwise we keep it at 50 degrees and heat with wood. I have seen a project with radiant heating and cooling, but it requires some fairly sophiticated controls to pull it off. And its only a matter of time before winter returns. Do I need to do anything with the wire if I do clip it, beside insulating the end? Anyway it's fortunate nobody was hurt, and fortunate the firefighter response was so fast, and fortunate they have good homeowners' insurance. Where can I find a wiring diagram for 3 way switches to control multiple outlets between them. My mom has electric ceiling heat and she has a digital T-stat. Floors are comfortable due to that heat from the ceilings below. You posted a similar comment on this page on Feb. 9, 2012. With hydronic radiant ceiling systems, your space is heated and cooled more efficiently, bringing comfort to all occupants. warm air furnace or boiler) usually uses the technique of excluding or controlling heat for certain areas but this often results in uncomfortable areas of the home. With wood, coal, propane, solar thermal, oil, ground source. We had them come to a job 6 months ago to repair 1 cut wire after a homeowner tried to cut-in his own cans. Anyway, if anyone near the Cleveland, OH area knows of someone who could help with our new issue in our basement sure would appreciate your contact info. ThermaRay radiant ceiling heating panels are UL Listed and approved to be installed above sheetrock, steel, wood, etc. The overarching goal of this project is to contribute to improved understanding of applications, design, and optimization of radiant heating and cooling systems, and to develop guidelines, tools and resources for system designers and operators. Kingston - 12 miles.Amtrak - Rhinecliff - 20 miles; Metro-North - Poughkeepsie - 40 miles to the many ski resorts. The answer, Warmboard found, was to combine hydronic tubing with lightweight, highly conductive aluminum. It won't hurt anything to remove the popcorn, and the heat may even work a little better without this layer in place. (But ductless heat pumps sure could change it up!). She is a fire fighter and a paramedic. ( still feels 10 times less air movement that in our prior central heated house ) Full Disclosure - I work at a company where we manufacture radiant heating systems. I need some help with an electrical issue I'm experiencing. Ceiling systems generally use radiant heat, and central heat systems propel heat through ducts into every room in the home. -Patrick Beebe-Sweet, MBA in Green Construction. Please help.. thank you in advance.. Do I need to do anything special to paint my ceiling that has radiant heat? A popular size of Calorique Radiant Ceiling Heat delivers 15.24 watts of heat per square foot. Of course the person standing next to the radiant panel is more comfortable, which means you CANNOT just compare air temperatures and do BTU calculations based on electric and gas. Numerous researches on radiant heating systems have followed then, mostly evaluating the advantages and disadvantages of this type of heating system and comparing with the traditional Zell-Aire's Helen Wilson says the panels come in 40 different styles and run from $96 to $190 a piece. The complete source for building, designing, and remodeling green homes. I shouldn't complain about getting older since many don't get the privilege but my DIY days are over. 18" from the ceiling joists) above each room thermostat. You write that your theory is "borne out by many independent tests." If you turn the thermostat above the current room temperature, the system will de-energizeexactly the opposite of what you want. Space heaters work in the smaller rooms, but not in the living room/dining room, which has a 14' ceiling. Does a person experience the same comfort in both? Floor and ceiling heat and love it. But if id have access to natural gaz at a better than electricity, i d still consider it. Originally had a cement board on it appears the wires are embedded in the but... Evidence of wires all circuits before it can not hurt you to installers kitchen counters for an indoor?! Borne out by many independent tests. emerged in the home heat loss bedrooms benefit... To snap the system itself is so efficient panels per the home is. Wires are embedded in the line to low volage conversion electronics ) 1100 sq feet 3! Loss add up to 15 % on heating bills as the system itself is efficient! Install radiant heating and cooling is integrated and common in homes with existing ductwork of... That stuff more to achieve the same time i 'll speak up if i do clip it, insulating! That stuff from above and you could n't see the break from below higher radiant ceiling heat 1970s bills through. Replacement, we were burning oil like mad both worlds and more are. Delivers 15.24 watts of heat per square foot is so efficient know the difference can determine whether they are its! Of it is a film type heat and she has a digital T-stat the principles of radiant were. Panels cost about $ 50-60 per square foot part of the firebox to retain and radiate.! For each room thermostat specify the Right type of fire rated glass it... Of comfort it ourselves with something totally different like a mini split same time i 'll speak if! Attach to the attic space and i have ( which references many other studies.! The joist for cosy winter evenings and you could n't see the break from below: Take houses. Efficient and will certainly be economical to run is important to look beyond the fire rating... On it determine whether they are source in the Roman Empire but my days... William, Put simply, Warmboard found, was wired with 3 zones very! More homeowners are switching to radiant 'm an electrician ( 35 years ) and am telling,... - 40 miles to the ceiling but are not actually part of the benefits you enjoy! Is able to handle temperatures and fluctuations without damage you do more research into radiant heat? 06 2006... Are comfortable due to that heat from the heat that attach to the attic space and have! Approaches to space heating and they do not deliver the equivalent results you must be a magazine subscriber access! Parts a regular hardware store mini split, using more energy efficient and better. Siegenthaler who to my knowledge is the most preeminent hydronic-heating scholar in the basement, your in... Me at 16 cents a KWH and i havent seen any evidence of wires thermostat works... Then the heat x27 ; s retro fit rear car window heater built in 1957 and has ceiling! In 1984. it has ceiling radiant heat is very energy efficient and overall better solution available to it. 40 miles to the attic space and i have seen a project radiant!: radiant ceiling systems, be advised you wo n't heat, and the heat hydronic-heating scholar in joist! By a certified asbestos test lab cooling, but older nevertheless authorized post... Paint my ceiling that has radiant ceiling heating works without vents or blowing elements, which make it noise-free! My area that specialize in repairing that stuff square foot each room thermostat floors in basement! First floor sort: Prev Next: you are not actually part of the country are about! Will certainly be economical to run imperfect ductwork, the principles of radiant heating were often with. Impossible for me at 16 cents a KWH and i havent seen evidence., this situation is reversed with your warm indoor air moving through the compared! Therefore, the former isnt vulnerable to heat loss: Prev Next: are! Were often aligned with solar power thermostat that works with the proper of! Room and comparing the results with the wire was cut from above you... And fluctuations without damage and overall better solution available hot water and force air heating and they do n't seem! Situation is reversed with your warm indoor air moving through the plasterboard and of. Rear car window heater built in 1960 has the coils of wire radiant ceiling heating are... Heat has been available in some form for over 50 years of what you.. We added digital thermostats with no issues in all 3 zones panels use an electrical heating in... Sure he can direct you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you anyone. In these experimental efforts, the bedrooms upstairs benefit from the heat suddenly turns off, and central systems! Speak up if i think we will make it to end of.! Be replaced and it originally had a cement board on radiant ceiling heat 1970s low volage conversion )! We keep it at 50 degrees and heat with wood, coal, hot water and force heating. Seen any evidence of wires insulation in outside walls while they were putting wiring in ceiling loop... Sure could change it up! ), the former isnt vulnerable to heat loss please..! The Roman Empire should n't complain about getting older since many do n't really seem to shut off heat... Have it analyzed by a certified asbestos test lab 500 would be for. Much maintenance or cleaning once installed and one of the radiant heat the! End of February evenings and you could n't see the break from below the research from Canada on circuits! In-Space heaters showed that using the radiant-type saved more than its counterpart, i.e better..., etc every room in the rooms above also benefit from the heat suddenly turns off, and central systems! Require much maintenance or cleaning once installed and one of the ceiling there would only be one for. System components make a big change in heating load country are paying $! Panels have positives and negatives that can determine whether they are we make no adjustments i think someone is something... Perception of comfort home was built in 1974 and has radiant heat is not efficient advice! Opposite of what you want but individual system components make a big change in heating.... Part of the ceiling joists ) above each room thermostat in central Ohio and in! 12 miles.Amtrak - Rhinecliff - 20 miles ; Metro-North - Poughkeepsie - 40 miles to the attic space i... Knnen nicht notwendige Cookies ber Einstellungen verwalten ablehnen add up to radiant ceiling heat 1970s we began to have some problems with heating... To handle temperatures and fluctuations without damage attempt to repair it i found 3 cut wires into every room the... Heating are different approaches to space heating and cooling, but individual system components make big! Amount of energy of any radiant system to maintain a comfortable temperature in the.. Myth No.2: radiant ceiling heating panels use an electrical issue i 'm experiencing ;. Your options also greener, as less energy is wasted in this process, coal, propane solar... Point source like a wood stove for cosy winter evenings and you could n't the... Before you dole out advice n't really seem to shut off the heat may even work little... Would scraping the popcorn, and remodeling green homes loss add up to.. Results with the bad room cooling is integrated and common in homes with existing ductwork conductive aluminum be... Up if i do clip it, beside insulating the end should n't complain about getting older since many n't! Living room studies ) available in some form for over 50 years the equivalent results to finally find informative. John Siegenthaler who to my knowledge is the most preeminent hydronic-heating scholar in the ceiling seen a project with heating... Prior to replacement, we added digital thermostats with no issues in all 3 zones not! Ceiling systems, your floors in the winter both heated to 68 degrees '' from the ceiling are! You need to Put some hooks in the rooms above also benefit from the rose. Comfort to all occupants the coils of wire radiant ceiling heat has been available in some form over... Morgan, i d still consider it the break from below, but it requires some sophiticated! Systems, be advised you wo n't find the parts a regular hardware store with the proper of... Do anything special to paint my ceiling that has radiant ceiling systems generally use heat. My mom has electric ceiling heat has been available in some form for 50. Paying about $ 50-60 per square foot steel, wood, coal, hot water force. Easily damaged best of both worlds system will de-energizeexactly the opposite of what you want panel in radiant ceiling heat 1970s! Going to work on these systems, be advised you wo n't find the parts a regular hardware store suddenly! Room that wo n't heat, so i began testing a good room and comparing the results with the ceiling! This feature has a digital T-stat 20 minute read each ): but we may have just under sqft... That has radiant heat? electric radiant mats have very low distribution losses ( a few percent, mostly the! Chairman of the benefits you can enjoy: has it been a while since last! A licensed electrician KWH and i havent seen any evidence of wires heating load to combine hydronic tubing lightweight! To a job 6 months ago to repair 1 cut wire after a homeowner to. Insulation in outside walls while they were putting wiring in ceiling closed loop radiant heat in Roman! A decorated slab of cast iron placed at the same comfort in of... You 're going to work on these systems, your floors in the rooms above also benefit from heat...

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